“My promise to my readers is I’m going to be honest and I’m going to be fair and when we’re explaining the issue at the top, like I will be as neutral and balanced in that section as I can.”
Welcome everyone to the It Matters To Me Podcast, a show that seeks out the passions in all of our lives and the motivations behind why we pursue them.
Joining me on this episode is Isaac Saul, the voice and curator of Tangle News.
Isaac is a politics reporter who grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, one of the most politically divided places in the United States.
In 2020, he created Tangle in an attempt to get people out of their information bubbles and only hearing stories that reaffirmed their existing beliefs.
His dream has been to create the most trusted brand in political news — all inside a newsletter you can read in just 10 minutes a day and a daily podcast that synthesizes major news events into a format free from political punditry.
What really drew me to interviewing him though was recognizing how much work Isaac has put into making Tangle what it is today.
And even though I wouldn’t necessarily call myself a news junkie, I do like to have at least a high-level understanding of what’s happening around the world and
I’ve really enjoyed listening to Tangle every day to get that information.
From how he takes a single story and turns it into a newsletter and podcast to how he manages the stress of being on a daily deadline, our conversation is a peak behind the curtain into how Tangle is fast becoming people’s go-to news source.
Additional Links
Tangle News (Website): https://www.readtangle.com/
Tangle News (Youtube): https://www.youtube.com/@tanglenews
Tangle News (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/tangle.news/
It Matters To Me (Instagram): https://www.instagram.com/adamcasey/
Read the transcript
Adam Casey
Welcome, everyone to the it matters to me podcast show that seeks out the
passions in all of our lives, and the motivations behind why we pursue them.
Joining me on this episode is Isaac soul, the voice and curator of tangled news
media. Isaac is a politics reporter, who grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania,
one of the most politically divided places in the United States. And in 2020,
he created tangle news in an attempt to get people out of their information
bubbles in only hearing stories that reaffirm their existing beliefs. His dream
has been to create the most trusted brand and political news all inside a
newsletter you can read in just 10 minutes a day, and a daily podcast that
synthesizes major news events into a format free of political punditry. What
really drew me to interviewing him, though, was recognizing just how much work
Isaac has put into making untangle what it is today. And even though I wouldn’t
necessarily call myself a news junkie, I do like to have at least a high level
understanding of what’s happening around the world. And I’ve really enjoyed
listening to tangle every day to get that information. Everything from how he
takes a single news story, and turns it into a newsletter and podcast, to how
he manages the stress of being on a daily deadline. Our conversation is a peek
behind the curtain into how tangle is fast becoming people’s go to news source.
All right. Let’s get to it. Here’s my talk with Isaac Saul.
Isaac, welcome to the show. It’s an honor to have you.
Isaac Saul
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I’m glad to be here.
Adam Casey
Now you are quite the media conglomerate, if I must say you run, you write a
newsletter that’s growing in popularity, if anything, I’ve heard quite a few
people talk about it in my circle. And I’ve recently discovered your podcast.
And so we’ll definitely get into a lot of those things. But one way I like to
start the show is with this generic question, but in a fun, kind of upbeat way
that I think gives the listener a little bit of a better insight into who the
guest is. And that question is, if I knew you growing up, what kinds of stories
would I tell about young Isaac?
Isaac Saul
Oh, God. I think you would probably tell stories of somebody who was a bit of a
troublemaker, I have two older brothers. We were pretty mischievous. Growing
up, we were always finding new ways to infuriate my mom, all athletes, just
like boys, you know, to the tee. Like stereotypical boys. We were rough and
stupid and arrogant, and made I think, a lot of dumb mistakes, but also learned
a lot as kids and had two parents who, you know, were open minded but had their
boundaries to you know, lay the law down when they had to so. God Yeah, that’s
a good question. I think most of the stories would probably be about me doing
something that was a little bit stupid, but maybe like, brilliant also. Good
example is like, I was 15 years old and I bought a Winnebago le shero as my
first car so you know, I used to pick up 10 friends on my way to school and
hang out in that thing and party when I was a senior in high school and that
was how I spent my Bar Mitzvah money and it was like you know, I don’t know if
that was the best way to do it but I have some really good memories from it now
and people remember me for having my first car that was an RV
Adam Casey
Yeah, I must say I take pride in my first car being a Jeep Cherokee with
wood panels on the side but I think an RV an RV would have been would have been
next level um Well speaking of brilliance and I do think this kind of loosely
ties into who you are today but you’re the founder of tangle net should I say
news media or News Corp people call it
Isaac Saul
tango. They call it Tango news. Our I think we’re incorporated as Tango media
LLC. So all of them work.
Adam Casey
Okay. Well, again, speaking of brilliant, I find tangle news. Absolutely
brilliant. I’ve only recently discovered your work but I definitely I devour it
every day that it comes out but I would love to hear you kind of describe what
it is that tangle news represents
Isaac Saul
Sure, yeah. So I mean, first of all, I’m a political journalist. That’s my
background, I went to school for nonfiction writing journalism track, and got
my career as a sports reporter. In college, that was kind of how I started. And
when I graduated, I transitioned to politics. And I realized pretty quickly
that the media ecosystem was broken that most Americans are getting news that
kind of just reaffirms their prior beliefs. We all are sort of living in our
own little media bubbles and echo chambers, which I think is something we’re
more aware of now than we’ve ever been a lot of your listeners have probably
heard those terms, which, you know, wasn’t true 10 years ago. And I used to,
because of my own kind of political incongruence, being sort of all over the
place on a lot of different issues. I used to feel like I had to read 10
different news articles about the same topic to just understand what the hell
was going on. So, you know, Trump gets indicted, like, we were recording this
on March 31. The news broke last night. In a normal world, like, I would have
to go read the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, The Washington Post,
watch Fox News, watch CNN, get all the different voices, all the different
takes on what was going on out there and then be like, Okay, maybe now I have
some sort of semblance of what a you know, what the truth is, what a fair
balanced take is a full collection of the information. And I just kind of was
thinking, I wish there was a place that put all that stuff in one spot where I
could read it all side by side. And that was kind of the original Genesis
written down in notebook idea for tangle. And so I came up with a format that
is basically explaining what the news of the day is, what the big political
debate of the day is, in the most neutral language I can, which is actually the
hardest part of the newsletter is the sort of introduction, six or seven
paragraphs, just breaking down, what’s the issue? What are we going to talk
about today. And then I collect the three most compelling interesting opinions
I can find from the right and three from the left, and I just put them in
succession in order with each other, and then I share my take at the end of the
newsletter. So I kind of give myself a little bit of space to just give my own
personal opinion and write like a mini op ed. So if you read our newsletter,
you know, front to back, you’ll get three opinions from the left three opinions
from the right, and then my personal view on whatever the big debate is, and
all of it sort of package with a really neutral explanation, basically,
breakdown of what you need to know about the story. And people really love it.
I mean, my, my fundamental idea was basically just getting all those opinions
in one, place it and then also getting people out of that bubble, that echo
chamber that we’re all living in. So they could experience and encounter some
views that might exist outside their immediate social circle or family, where
that might challenge their own prior beliefs. And I was not sure whether
there’d be an interest in it, because we all obviously really like our silos
and we like feeling smart. And we like feeling like we’re right. People
typically don’t like changing their minds or being challenged. And I have been
pleasantly surprised that there seems to be a really high demand for this kind
of news, which has been really exciting for me.
Adam Casey
If I’m correct, it’s, it started out as a basic newsletter that you circulated
among friends. And then it kind of grew from there. Is that correct?
Isaac Saul
Yeah. So I was working a full time job as a politics reporter and editor and
the company I was working for was changing. And it was changing the way that I
didn’t really want to be a part of their sort of doing like the pivot to video
and moving away from written and reported content. So I had this idea for the
newsletter for a long time. And I basically started a sub stack newsletter
mailing list, and just sent a version of the newsletter to like 100 friends and
colleagues and just had a note that was like, Hey, let me know what you think
about this and kicking around this idea. And initially, there was no section. I
mean, there were a lot of sections. We have a lot of sections now that didn’t exist
then. But one of the big ones that was missing was the My take part. The first
few newsletters I sent out were just like the story with a leftist saying what
the writer is saying, and a lot of people responded and said, like, Dude, I
love this. I would totally read this if you were doing this every day. But what
do you think like, you’re a politics reporter. You know, I’m actually curious
what your opinion and I got a bunch of people responding with that. So I was
like, Oh, alright, maybe I’ll just add this little section which ended up being
really useful because it was a way for me to kind of show my cards with readers
and just say like, look, I’m person, I have opinions, I my own beliefs, like
your my views out in the open, you can take them or leave them. And I think
that that builds a lot of trust and a readership. I think if I weren’t doing
that people would be a lot more suspicious about, you know, what my motives
were and what I was trying to do. And I think the fact that I get to share my
take, and the newsletter is sort of like an act of transparency of just like,
you know, that I’m coming from this position, but I’m gonna share a lot of
opinions in the newsletter that I don’t agree with every day, because that’s
like, you know, it’s the whole point, basically.
Adam Casey
And on top of that, you would I also enjoy the ending each episode if you take,
like listener questions. And I think one just maybe yesterday, the day before,
it was a simple one about why you supposedly didn’t cover Joe Biden’s gaffe
before the Nashville shooting was announced. Your listener asked like, why
weren’t you covering that? And I, I do appreciate the fact that you kind of
retro actively go back to things and re examine them based on new evidence or
based on like new new news, for the most part, and I think it you just like you
said, he does give a little bit of authenticity alongside your, your added my
take section, so that, you know, you’re not just presenting yourself as some as
some robot who’s only delivering facts, you’re just synthesizing it, and you’re
putting it out there. But you’re still encouraging people to make their own
decisions based on what you’re reporting.
Isaac Saul
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a really human element to the newsletter that kind
of happened organically, that people connect to, you know, I’m not the only
place that does this. There’s like different kinds of versions that sort of
have, you know, that I would call competitors that sort of have like a space
where you can see left and right opinions in one spot. They’re not particularly
common. But I think what attracts a lot of readers to us is that there is this
person behind it, which, you know, they it gives them somebody to challenge
when they feel like I’m wrong about something. It’s like, it adds a little
personality, the newsletter, which I think makes it more interesting. But yeah,
we’ve done a lot of things. I mean, answering reader questions is a big one
that gives the readers a space to sort of like push back on things I’ve
written, or just, you know, direct what the content is going to be in the
newsletter. So we answer a reader question every day in the newsletter in the
podcasts. And then, you know, we also have a policy of putting corrections at
the top of the newsletter featuring them very prominently and at the top of the
podcast, and we keep a correction count running. So anytime I have a
correction, I’ll tell you, you know, this is the 110th correction and our 950
newsletters, and it’s the first correction we’ve had since you know, march 1,
or something like that. And oftentimes, we’ll try and explain how Mistakes
happen in the newsletter, which I think people also really like. And we try and
share reader feedback. So if somebody writes in and they have like really biting
criticism about my argument, or another argument that appeared in the
newsletter, they say, Hey, actually, I’m, you know, a staffer working on this
piece of legislation, here’s my perspective on it. We’ll share that in the
newsletter with readers, which, you know, people also really like that because
it gives it makes it so it’s like the communities participating in the creation
of the newsletter, a little bit
Adam Casey
of it, like a crowdsource newsletter, is walk me through what your day to day
might be like, you know, you gave the example of trumping indicted last night
like what is your process from start to finish from where you hear a piece of
news? And then you go in like that being the start. And then the final result
being a published newsletter and published podcast?
Isaac Saul
Yeah. So with a story like the Trump indictment, those are actually a little
bit easier for me to cover because I’ve covered it a few times before. So I
have a bunch of background like institutional knowledge already. Some of the
hardest newsletters are when there’s a story popping up. That’s totally new to
me, like when Silicon Valley Bank collapsed, I did learn a lot about how the
bank worked. And you know, what the regulators were doing and what was specifically
California and how the tech industry impacted and what the federal government
oversight was supposed to be like. I mean, there’s all this stuff. That was it
was like a totally new issue for me that required days of research. But a
typical story is usually more like the Trump indictment, which is like, there
are pieces of it that I already understand, already know, because I cover
politics for a living. So for a story like that, you know, the New York Times
broke the Trump indictment story on Thursday night, so I’ll read their piece,
you know, it goes straight to the source that actually broke the story, which
is something I don’t think readers do enough. That story that New York Times
publish has now been repurposed and recycled on a million different news
outlets. You can read it all throughout the media. goes so but there were three
reporters that the New York Times actually broke that story. So, you know, read
their piece for see what the original languages see what they actually know in
that initial piece. Since it was broken in the New York Times, the first thing
I’ll do is go read a version of that story in The Wall Street Journal or Fox
News, like a more of right of center news outlet to make sure that I’m not
biasing myself, like if I read The New York Times, and then the Washington
Post, and then CNN and then MSNBC, it’s like, I will remember all the facts and
framing of those first few networks, because that’ll be my first impression of
the story. And I know that if I do that it like will bias me in a way that is
really hard for me to break out of. So I’ll be really intentional about making
sure that the second or third place I go and read about the story is from some
kind of right of center, conservative voice. And I’ll try and read those straight
news stories first, and then then it’s scouring the opinion section. So you
know, I have a Google document of probably like, multiple hundreds of news
outlets that are out there with, you know, notes about what what their
political bias tends to be. So, you know, the National reviews editorial board
is like right of center. So I know if I’m looking for a conservative opinion,
about a big topic, maybe I’ll go read National Review and see what you know,
their, their opinion makers are saying, I really prefer written opinion pieces.
But in today’s day and age, obviously, you know, you have the primetime news
anchors, you know, the Rachel Maddow, Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, the CNN
lineup, so I try and tune in and watch those who read transcripts of their shows,
all those news outlets publish transcripts of the primetime shows, after
they’re upset, I’ll go read them like the morning after and just see what
Tucker is saying about the like the big issue, people are debating or something
like that. And then there’s the podcasters. And the YouTubers, which are both
valuable because I think their audiences are really big. And they are their
arguments tend to be easy to suss out in terms of what the partisan leanings
are. But it’s a little bit more difficult, because listening to somebody just
takes a lot more time than reading, I can read a lot faster than I can listen
to somebody talk through something. So it’s a little more time consuming. So
you know, I’m definitely reading more opinion pieces than I am consuming
podcasts and YouTube personalities. And that’ll be like the first four or five
hours on a story, we’ll be just like taking in as much as I possibly can. And
anytime I come across something that’s either like, Okay, this point has been
made in like, six different articles. So clearly, this is the talking point on
the right about this issue, pulling that out and putting it in the newsletter
and like, make sure I’m gonna represent this. And then, you know, I try and
pick stuff that’s kind of a mix of like, what’s really representative of the
opinion on the right or the left. So what’s like, what’s the that thing I’m
seeing that’s coming up over and over again, what two or three points they
hammering, make sure we have some pieces that are sort of representing that.
And then I usually try to include at least one piece from both the right and
the left, that’s like, a little bit bucking whatever the party line is, or
maybe offering some kind of like, alternative perspective, because it’s
important for me that, you know, to make it clear that even amongst the right
and the left, there isn’t just like monolithic agreement. That’s not how it
works in today’s politics. So like, a good example is we covered the parental
rights bill that Congress passed on, you know, last week, but we covered it, I
think, on Wednesday, or Thursday. And there were five Republicans in the House
who voted against this bill, including one Republican co sponsored the initial
bill, and then voted against it after it was amended. So I included an opinion
piece from you know, one of the conservative representatives who wrote about
why he oppose the legislation because even though most conservatives by support
it, I think it’s important to include like the the kind of SEC that was pushing
back against it. The vast majority of my work is research. And then oftentimes,
I’ll run into some stuff that’s just I don’t understand, you know, there are
blanks that need to be filled in. And that’s when I kind of tap the resources
that I have, you know, the sources have developed over years of reporting, so
I’ll send a few emails or text some people I know who are like experts in a
space or maybe write an email to a staffer who’s on like a congressman scene
and say, like, Hey, Am I understanding like, this is the position you guys
because I don’t want to publish this and be wrong about what your position is.
It’s, it’s I mean, that’s journalism, like it’s a little bit of like my old
school reporting skill. But I’m coming much more in like a friendly like, Hey, we’re
publishing and saying I want to make sure I have, like, I’m clear on what the
the opinion is here. So, you know, a good example of that is like, I have a
friend who runs a magazine that’s all about oil in Iraq. So when the energy
crisis was happening, because of the Russia, Ukraine war, it’s like, Oh, I
know, somebody who’s like an expert on the oil situation in the Middle East,
and how that impacts Russia and Ukraine, whatever. And Russia is obviously
moving a lot of that oil. So I would email him and text him and ask him
questions. And he always has, like, really insightful answers about what the
industry view is on this particular issue. And then it’s pretty much a scramble
to make all of that into like a coherent newsletter. It’s the last few hours or
like a huge push of just writing and editing that goes into the newsletter. So
I’m pretty much working on deadline, like every morning, which I’m comfortable
that’s like how I came up with doing deadline reporting, but that the the
research part really is the biggest chunk of time. And my the writing part is
like what I’m really good at doing really fast. That’s kind of like my, my 99.
So I know I got four hours left on the clock, and we have like, 500 words of a
4000 word newsletter, like I need to start hauling ass and getting this thing
out. So that’s typically how like the last few hours of my morning are spent
before the newsletter goes out.
Adam Casey
Yeah, two questions. First, how much coffee do you drink? And second, how do
you handle the stress of being under a daily deadline like that?
Isaac Saul
Yeah, I drink a lot of coffee. When I met my current wife, I did not drink any
coffee. She introduced me to coffee when we were dating absolutely changed my
wife. Now I’m like a four cup of Dade guy. So I need it, it definitely helps me
at like two or three o’clock, I go get my last Coffee of the day before I
crash. Stress wise, I have not always been good at handling it to be totally
frank. I you know, I’ve actually written about this in the newsletter, it took
me a really long time, probably like two years of doing this, to realize that I
was like not managing it well. Both, like wasn’t getting myself enough sleep
wasn’t taking enough space away from screen time whenever I had like, heart palpitations, and like eye twitches. And I mean, I was like, you know, I was totally overrun
with information. And when I first started the newsletter, I was working
another full time job. So you know, I was doing like 15 or 16 hour days of just
work on the computer like hard work. And now I have a few like best practices
that I go into the day with. So in the mornings, I try and make sure like the
first thing I read is not on a screen. So when I wake up in the morning, I’ll
like pull up a book off the shelf and just like read a couple pages to just be
nice to my eyes. I’m not like I try and avoid my screens early on in the day.
And then at the end of the day at like six o’clock, I have a super hard stop
where it’s like it doesn’t matter where I am at 6pm I’m gonna close my computer
and shut it down for the day because that’s 12 hours for me I’ll start working
at six and I’m like when I hit the 12 hour mark it’s like if I couldn’t get it
done in 12 hours like it’s it’s uh you know, I just like and I every now and
then we’ll break that rule but I try and be really good about not doing that
and then a lot of a lot of exercise and trying to make sure I get my seven or
eight hours of sleep every night which I’m I’m really strict about I’m I’m in
bed reading at you know 930 And hoping to be asleep by 10 and waking up at 530
or whatever the next day so it’s taken me a while to sort of get that
discipline but now that I have it I definitely feel the positive impacts of it
like a lot of that health stuff I’ve was talking about I’ve gotten past and
it’s certainly I still feel like I’m in kind of high stress work but I manage
it way better than I used to now for sure that’s good
Adam Casey
yeah, I mentioned to you before we hit record recording that I used to be in
the Marines and when I got out i i wore as like a badge of honor the lack of
sleep that I would be getting. Oh two hours asleep like yeah, that means I’m
really doing like well in life and just along the read of getting a good
night’s sleep now I cherish my sleep. I mean I I look for any opportunity to go
to bed early. If anything more just because I’m a I’m a runner and I like to
get up Ready to go run? But yeah, it’s, it can be hard sometimes, especially
when you find something that’s so motivating for you, I would imagine you just
like you said, Your laptop is your key your gateway to the world to your work.
And so how hard is it to actually, you know, in the evening, close your laptop
when they come when that six o’clock deadline is, is it? Is it easier more
often than not? Or is it something where you find yourself fighting to do?
Isaac Saul
It’s definitely hard. I mean, there’s always a list of stuff that I could, you
know, like, put in another hour and know that I’m going to be ahead and the
next day will be easier. It’s especially hard when like a former president gets
indicted and the news breaks at 6:30pm. And I’m like, god dammit, like, I have
to deal with this. You know, that literally last night, I was closing my
computer. The New York Times story broke at like, you know, 545, I was lucky
enough to make a six o’clock dinner with my wife. And I went downstairs and
like, you know, I’m like, Holy shit, they just indicted Trump. And she’s just
like, put your phone away. I’m just like, but they just indicted Trump, like, I
need to read about this for the next 10 hours, you know, like, so it’s, it’s
hard, man, it’s, it can be really hard. But I’m always better for it. I mean,
it’s, you know, it’s, I’ve learned that first of all, the news is always going to
be there in the morning, you know. And I, I’m not a breaking news outlet. So
even though I end up working out on working on deadline every day, it’s like,
the newsletter goes out at noon Eastern every day. So I don’t have anything to
do until I don’t need to go out at 12. And also, the most mistakes are always
made in that first hour, when a big story like that breaks. And I benefit a lot
from being sort of on the slow news. Like I don’t have to say anything for the
first hour. And I let everybody else come out with their smokin hot takes and
make themselves look silly. And then I kind of come in a little bit later, you
know, 1224 hours later, and then I can sort of offer a perspective after seeing
like the whole, I guess, holistic look at what the actual takes and the
responses and the news is and yeah, I think that benefits my work and certainly
benefits my writing. And it’s a good excuse to just like not throw myself into
it right away. Yeah, the
Adam Casey
what I was going to, is going to bring up just that taking that tactical pause
before writing, you know, a hot tweet or filling in that newsletter probably
serves a little bit of a benefit. Because yeah, there’s so much especially when
it’s instance sensationalized story, I mean, less so maybe about the Trump
indictment, but we you know, unfortunately, a good example is usually like a
school shooting, or any type of shooting, and there’s random bits of
information coming out about the shooter, it’s like, you know, at least I
personally, if I’m even going to read anything about it, because unfortunately,
we’ve gotten to that point where those things are so common now that it’s just,
it’s that, you know, I’ll just let that explain itself. But usually, if I’m
going to read something about it, I won’t read anything for at least three or
four days until the waves start to settle, because I know that there’s so much
that’s being reported on that, you know, majority of it probably is going to
turn out to be untrue. Um, where do you get your work ethic from?
Isaac Saul
That’s a good question. I think. I mean, first of all, I am like a was for a
very long time, a super competitive athlete, played Ultimate Frisbee growing
up, and lacrosse and ultimate was always my sport. I know, for people who are
unfamiliar, it might just sound like a bunch of hippies in the park with the
dog. But, you know, I played really competitively in high school, college and
semi professionally as an adult, College National Championship state champion
in high school. It was basically my life. And it’s a really difficult sport,
big endurance sport, lots of running lots of training. And I think like, that
definitely had a huge impact on me from from a discipline perspective. I also
just think, like, a lot of the really important people in my life, who I care a
lot about, have shown me that, you know, having a really clear purpose and
like, a goal every day is a really fulfilling way to live. And, you know, I’ve
had jobs that I didn’t work super hard at because I didn’t care that much about
the work. You know, I was fortunate that as a journalist and a writer, I did
when I got out of school, I got some jobs that I really liked, and I got to
work in some places where I was really interested in the things we were doing,
but you know, like I mentioned the The company I was at before tangle. The last
year or so I was there, we were doing all this video stuff. And I was there a
days I was kind of dog in it. And a lot of times I was dogging it to try and
tinker with my own ideas, my own projects and like building this off ramp for
myself, but I definitely wasn’t giving, you know, my full 100% at the end. So I
know what it’s like to not do that. And it sucks. Like it’s not a to me. For me
personally, like, I don’t get anything out of that it’s not a good feeling. For
me, I really love the end of the day, like the feeling of being spent and like
I did a bunch and I was really productive. And it’s not just when I’m you know,
writing Tango or working on a project like that it’s you know, there are days
where I go out back and work in the garden or something. And I spend a whole
day trying to build a garden bed and fill it up with soil and I’m going to the
store and getting seeds and doing stuff like that. And it’s like that, like
doing that and feeling like I finished something at the end of the day allows
me to kind of relax, I think. So I like that part of it. Like I like how that
feels. And I don’t know, I don’t know what else to do with my time we’re here
we’ve got one of these. So we might as well make the most of it, I guess.
Isaac Saul
I’m like a I’m a was for a very long time a super competitive athlete played
Ultimate Frisbee growing up and lacrosse. And ultimate was always my sport. I
know, for people who are unfamiliar, it might just sound like a bunch of
hippies in the park with the dog. But, you know, I played really competitively
in high school, college and semi professionally as an adult, College National
Championship state champion in high school, it was basically my life. And it’s a
really difficult sport, big endurance sport, lots of running lots of training.
And I think like, that definitely had a huge impact on me from from a
discipline perspective. I also just think, like, a lot of the really important
people in my life, who I care a lot about, have shown me that, you know, having
a really clear purpose, and like, a goal every day is a really fulfilling way
to live. And, you know, I’ve had jobs that I didn’t work super hard at, because
I didn’t care that much about the work. You know, I was fortunate that as a
journalist and a writer, I did when I got out of school, I got some jobs that I
really liked. And I got to work in some places where I was really interested in
the things we were doing. But you know, like I mentioned, the company I was at
before tangle. The last year or so I was there, we were doing all this video
stuff. And I was there a days I was kind of dog in it. And a lot of times I was
dogging it to try and tinker with my own ideas, my own projects, and like
building this off ramp for myself, but I definitely wasn’t giving, you know, my
full 100% at the end. So I know what it’s like to not do that. And it sucks.
Like it’s not a to me, for me personally, like, I don’t get anything out of
that it’s not a good feeling. For me, I really love the end of the day, like
the feeling of being spent and like I did a bunch and I was really productive.
And it’s not just when you know writing Tango or working on a project like that
it’s you know, there are days where I go out back and work in the garden or
something. And I spend a whole day trying to build a garden bed and fill it up
with soil and I’m going to the store and getting seeds and doing stuff like
that. And it’s like that, like doing that and feeling like I finished something
at the end of the day allows me to kind of relax, I think. So I like that part
of it. Like I like how that feels. And I don’t know, I don’t know what else to
do with my time we’re here we’ve got one of these. So we might as well make the
most of it, I guess.
Adam Casey
Do you ever use a checklist in your day to day?
Isaac Saul
Yeah, so I actually use this app called sin sama. I don’t even know how to say
it’s the I think it’s sin sama. And it’s the only it’s the only work
organization tool app that’s ever worked. For me, I don’t know why I’ve tried a
few different like monday.com and a couple places like that. This one’s just
really simple. It’s like it’s a task manager, you know, and I go in and I drop
my little tasks. And whenever I have, and I have the app on my phone, so if I’m
not at my computer, and I think I’ll have to do that. I can add it to my list
really quick. And then there’s just this really satisfying, like green
checkmark that you press it and it kind of fills up and moves the thing down
when you’re done. And it like there’s this visual element of it that I’m like,
okay, that that task is complete, I can move on to the next thing. So I wasn’t
always that organized. I struggled for a while to find something like that.
That worked well for me. But I’ve had that pride for the last year or two. And
yeah, the checklist is great. I love the feeling of crossing some stuff off the
list for sure.
Adam Casey
Yeah, that’s my that’s my go to sometimes even just a written checklists and
being able to cross something out. I mean, as we’re talking right now, the
satisfaction of like, crossing off some of these questions. Yeah, there’s
something to it. Okay. So how do you keep yourself anchored in the middle in a
lot of your reporting? And do you ever have like, the equivalent of a palate
cleanser, you know, like a sorbet in between reading news articles to kind of
keep yourself? Yes, centered in the middle.
Isaac Saul
Yeah, good question. So, interestingly, I’ll say like, first of all, I don’t
consider myself to be anchored in the middle and I’m actually not on a personal
level trying to be you know, centrist or or nonpartisan. In fact, like, I like
to be open about how I feel on certain issues. My big thing is, I just don’t
really as funny as it is because we do this left and right take. I don’t really
by like the left, right. dichotomy. I mean, I’m like, people ask me all the
time, it’s the most common question I get like, what are your What are your
views? What do you actually think? Who do you vote for? What are your I’m like,
What are we told Talking about, you know, like, give me the issue. And I’ll
tell you, I’m happy to tell you what I think about any given issue. But, you
know, I’m not going to say, Oh, I’m like left of center, oh, I’m right of
center, because then you’re going to make all these assumptions about how I
feel when that’s not really how I feel. So, you know, I guess like the North
Star for me is just that both sides have really good and really bad ideas about
different things, all of their positions are a lot more nuanced than I think
the country gives them credit for. And my promise to my readers is, I’m going
to be honest, and I’m going to be fair, and when we’re explaining the issue at
the top, like, I will be as neutral and balanced in that section as I can. And
so a lot of the times what I take my cues from those news outlets that I’m
reading, like, you know, a good example is, when I talk about COVID deaths in
the newsletter, one of the things that we do is we say, you know, over a
million people in the United States have died from or with COVID. And readers
notice, like those language shifts like that, that is a really significant
distinction to me, like, we don’t actually know that over a million people have
died from COVID, we know that a million people have been in the hospital and
tested positive for COVID and died. But a lot of them probably died of
something that wasn’t COVID. And, you know, I don’t know what that number is, I
think we’re gonna figure that out at some point. But I think most hospitals and
health agencies are still figuring that number out. And little language changes
like that, you know, if I write undocumented immigrant in the newsletter, all
my conservative readers are like, Oh, he’s a lid, that’s like the key to them.
And if I say, you know, we have illegal aliens in the newsletter, all the
liberal readers like, Oh, my God, he’s like a closet Trumper. So we say
unauthorized migrants, sort of like somewhere in the middle, you know, it’s
just like, and those kinds of language choices, I think, build trust, it takes
away like some of the stuff people can complain and fight about. And it’s a
good answer to just like, sort of carving that, that middle path. It’s not
easy. In terms of like the palate cleanser, I actually do do that. Like, I’m a
huge sports junkie. So you know, I’ll like between shifting gears, I’ll just
spend five minutes on espn.com or something. And, unfortunately, politics is
infecting everything these days. So it’s not necessarily like I’m going to
escape sports by doing that. But I do try and just like, Get up, go downstairs,
shake it out, you know, have a cup of coffee, fill my water, glass up, whatever
stretch out for a minute, take a breath, come back, you know, I work in 20 minute
increments. So I have a timer on my computer that goes off every 20 minutes,
remind me to stand up for two minutes or walk around or whatever. And that’s
usually like a good baked in break for me.
Adam Casey
Yeah, I also recommend getting a dog if you don’t have one, especially a German
Shorthaired Pointer, which is what I have. And she’s really good at
interrupting me in the most important parts of my day, to get up and go play if
I haven’t gotten her exercise. So that’s my, my little tidbit in case any of
the other tricks that you have up your sleeve don’t necessarily work out. You
know, you kind of briefly touched on this before, but one thing I would love to
know is how have you had any of your beliefs changed? Or have you had any of
your beliefs changed and your reporting? And I think one thing that you do
pretty well, and you’ve already have explained is that you’re human, you’re
gonna have implicit bias, your your first impression is going to have a bias to
it. But is, is there any story or anything that comes to mind where you know
that you unintentionally intentionally went into researching it with that
little part of your brain saying, Oh, I bet you you know, just like thinking
you were going down one way, but by the time you were done reporting on it,
you’re like, wow, that actually didn’t turn out the way that I thought it was
going to.
Isaac Saul
Yeah, actually, it’s funny you asked that question, because that’s one of my
favorite questions to ask other people and my readers is, I’ll often say like,
when was the last time you change your mind about a political issue? And most
people usually can’t think of an instance where they’ve done that. And I say,
like, do you see the problem with that? Like, do you think that you’re right
about everything? Because if you are, you know, have enough humility to say
you’re probably not right about anything, then the only reason you wouldn’t
have ever changed your mind about something is because you’re not getting your
views challenged at all. So I love that question. I haven’t seen it all the
time. And interestingly enough, it’s happening to me more and more. The more
that I do tango, like I think I’m getting better at being open minded and like
letting go of my priors. Going into stuff because I’m flexing that muscle so
much doing the work of the newsletter, I think it’s sort of increasing in
frequency where like, I’m more open minded now than I’ve ever really been on on
issues like that. on political issues specifically. So I’ve two things tend to
happen. One is either like, my view gets more partisan, because I’ve read all
the arguments, and I’m like, Oh, wait, that, like the actual size of their
argument is, like, even worse than I thought it was, or whatever, you know, I
actually just wrote a piece recently about what I call my most extreme
political view, which is that I’ve pretty staunch anti prison views. You know,
I think today that’s very much associated with like the progressive left, I
think, you know, 30, or 40 years ago was much more of like a kind of
libertarian, small government type view to have, I don’t really care where it
puts me, but like, I fundamentally think that prisons are inhumane, I think,
like locking people in cages is doesn’t work doesn’t rehabilitate them doesn’t
help them. It’s probably increasing crime based on the data that we have. So I
wrote a huge piece, just like, here’s my most extreme political view, you know,
whatever. And I got there by being kind of moderately, quote, unquote, left on
that issue or like, moderately, like, we need prison reform and then reading
more and more about the arguments against it. And realizing they were like,
totally unconvincing to me. I think like, I, one issue that I have really
changed my mind on recently, maybe not so much changed my mind on is had a
change of perspective about how important it was, is like I’ve become a pretty
staunch free speech kind of absolutist and feel myself way more aligned, I
guess now with like, what the modern conservative position tends to be at least
what they say their position is, I don’t think they always practice it as well
as they should. But, you know, I used to five years ago, I thought that
concerns about free speech and speech on campus and stuff. I thought they were
kind of overblown. And I don’t feel that way anymore. I think that like we
actually do have like a cultural free speech deficit. A lot of people like to
say, Oh, well, it’s the government’s not infringing on your speech. And so it’s
not a free speech violation. And it’s like, yeah, that’s technically true. But
historically, you know, the, the thing that precedes the government, infringing
on people’s free speech rights is that there’s like an erosion of cultural
value of free speech. And I think we’re in that erosion right now. I think people
view it as a less and less important, right, and something that’s less and less
important to preserve. And that really scares me. And I feel very aligned with
like a lot of the rhetoric and the views from, you know, the kind of like,
bombastic Republicans that are out there on this issue, who are sort of
screaming from the rooftops that it’s a big deal. So yeah, those are like two
that comes to mind. But it happens all the time in the newsletter, that I will
go in thinking I feel one way about it. And then I’ll read one or two pieces
that just like really hit me in the gut. And I’m like, Oh, this is actually,
like, this is the best argument, I think, and I sort of have to amend or change
my position to kind of address that.
Adam Casey
One example, personally, that comes to mind was just the most recent I think it
was a governor of Arkansas, Sarah Huckabee Sanders signed the chuck, a child
labor law that removed a it definitely correct me where I’m wrong on this, but
she signed something into law that removed a step in the process of an underage
miner getting approved for work in the state of Arkansas. And the example is
not that I went into it with this. Oh, like, Sarah Huckabee Sanders used to be
Trump’s, you know, press chief, you know, she used to be involved in the Trump
administration. So this is clearly got to be wrong. It’s clearly SB like 1930s
1920s You know, meatpacking industry, kind of child labor law violation. But by
the end of listening to your episode, in hearing your take on it, it was just
like, No, this is just removing one out of many, many bureaucratic steps for a,
you know, 16 year old to go get a job washing dishes at a restaurant down, you
know, wherever they live, and, and I really appreciated that because again,
like, again, that didn’t go into it with his hardcore mentality that it was
automatically wrong, but I recognize where my bias was when I had first heard
about the story elsewhere. And I think yeah, you just do a really good job and
I think that your My take portion really is important because yeah, we all like
to think that we’re independent thinkers, but sometimes, you know, you’re
you’re a pro, you know, I’m not, you know, like, I’m a DIY guy, there are some
things that I tried to do on my own. But there are some things where it’s like,
Nope, I need a pro for this. Like, if I’m gonna, you know, be replacing breaks
in my car, like, if I’m not 100% confident, I should probably take it to a pro
before I do it myself and take it on the highway.
Isaac Saul
Yeah, no, 100%. That’s cool to hear about that specific article. I also, you
know, I was skeptical of some of the headlines that I was seeing about the
article. But the news, it was like way over cover a covered and the saturation
of the coverage was all in the left leaning media about that law. So all the
initial headlines I saw were all about like, oh, like Republicans are making it
easier to like, send kids back to the coal mines, or whatever it was all like
the child labor stuff. So when I actually read the bill, I had like a similar
reaction of being like, Oh, this is like not really a big deal at all. And
also, it’s probably good if kids more like teenager working like teenagers are
such punks right now. So like, you know, that I sort of had that kind of like,
emoji old man reaction to it. But that’s, that’s cool to hear that you sort of
went through that process? I mean, I think, really, interestingly, I’ve gotten
to hear from a lot of readers who do have that experience reading the newsletter,
which is super rewarding for me. Yeah,
Adam Casey
yeah. And, you know, I know, we’re on a tight schedule. And I have one more
question. But I don’t want to leave this without saying it. Not only is what
the work that you’re doing, helpful for a person like me, who likes to think
they’re independent and wants to, you know, just read the news for what it is
and not hear too much of a slant to it. But I personally, my dad and I, we love
each other, but we’re on pretty opposite sides of the spectrum, political
spectrum. And it’s really hard to engage in political topics with him. But that
is something that he finds he he is interested in. And I’ve actually, over the
last month or so been able to engage with him more in a much more civil way because
of your work. And it’s, you know, there’s been, there’s been a little bit of a
little bit of like psychology tricks in there, where I, the one of your first
stories that I introduced to him, definitely fell in his camp of support, but
then I was able to follow up with something that fell in my camp. So it was
like, basically, I hooked him in to say that the work that you do is, you know,
fair and balanced that, hey, you don’t need to use the Fox News tagline. But
the work that you do is fair reporting, and then like him with like, a
curveball and then like, but then he also supports this other thing about gun
reform or something. And so I just want to make sure that that’s, you know, the
that you, at least from one person out there, the work that you’re doing is
hits on a much more personal level. And I want to say thank you to that. But
coming to a close. What is the goal of tangle? You know, it started out as a
newsletter, and it started out as your own personal project. And now, you know,
it’s developed into a team of people that do this, but what yeah, what is the
goal? If I, if I gave you a call 10 years from now? What would you like to
obscene tangle involve evolve into?
Isaac Saul
Yeah, I mean, look, first of all, thank you for the comments about your dad, in
your experience I wanted the most unexpected things that has happened to me is
that I’ve heard a version of that story from many readers and listeners who
have said that they felt like Tango was building some kind of bridge between
them and like a family member, or spouse or whatever, where they were both
reading the newsletter, and they could talk about and have a good jumping off
point, which has been hugely rewarding for me. And I like that’s such a cool
story to hear that you’ve been able to do that I think your strategy on hooking
him was very smart.
Adam Casey
I hope
Isaac Saul
that, you know, in 10 years, we are a small, well paid team with a massive
audience. I mean, I think that to me, is like the really, that’s the really big
goal that I have. I don’t I don’t want to be the next like CNN or Wall Street
Journal or whatever. I’m not trying to turn into like a massive 2000 person
media organization. I want their audience though. Like, I want to take the ears
and the listeners and the viewers that they have. And you know, my dream world
would be across these platforms, you know, the newsletter, the website, the
podcasts, we’re launching a YouTube channel in April, that, you know, we can
get millions of people consuming our content in any given day, and that that
reach sort of turns the temperature down a little bit and also creates a more
informed populace. I mean, what would be really cool for me is like to have a
big audience that’s waiting to see how we cover a story. worry, in order to
feel like they really understand what’s happening out there and having so many
Americans who are doing that, and people across the globe, I mean, we have
readers in over 50 countries outside the US, which is really cool. So, you
know, my Yeah, my dream is really just to scale the audience, from, you know,
the 60,000 newsletter subscribers, we have to many millions, that would be the
dream for me. Because I just think like, you know, I think it’s good for
people. I think the content is genuinely good for people’s brains. I think it
makes them more empathetic about people that disagree with it allows them to be
more informed about an issue. It sets up a scenario where they better
understand folks that they’ve been, like, programmed to hate. And I think that
we are in a time where that’s really needed right now. So yeah, I would say
that that’s my goal, build this team out a little bit more get a little bit
bigger, but I want to be a lean machine and just really scale the audience.
That’s going to be a big focus for us. Awesome.
Adam Casey
Well, Isaac, it is been this has been one of the most enjoyable conversations
I’ve had in a while. And who would have thought it would have been about
politics, but I’ve really, I’ve really, I really have enjoyed it. For everyone.
Anyone out there? How would you encourage people to to engage with you in your
work?
Isaac Saul
Yeah, please, the best thing to do is just to go to readtangle.com. And right
when you go to read untangle.com, you’ll get hit with a little overlay to drop
your email in there. And you can subscribe for free, we offer 80% of our
content for free and the newsletter The Monday through Thursday, newsletters
totally free. And then we have Friday editions that are paywalled. So you know,
sign up for free, see if you like it or sign up for free and subscribe just to
support it because you like the mission. And once you’re in on the newsletter,
everything kind of flows out from there. That’s still our core product. So you’ll
get links to the podcasts and get information about the YouTube channel coming
up and you’ll fall into the website organically. But please, yes, read
tangled.com Check it out, subscribe and spread the word if you enjoy it.
Adam Casey
Well, Isaac, thank you so much. This has been an absolute pleasure and I hope
to talk to you again soon.
Isaac Saul
Thank you, Adam. I appreciate the time and thanks for having me on.
It Matters To Me Podcast 